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LIQUID LIMO: 1989 Crest Sundecker Rebuild

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 2:30pm
Let me add something, because I don't necessarily want to talk you out of the two 12V DC batteries in parallel.

If you're going to go that route, allow me to make a suggestion.  Put a disconnect switch on the leg that connects the two batteries in parallel.  That way you can isolate them.

Get a two bank charger.  Something like a Dual Pro PS2 (two 15A isolated chargers for a total of 30A charging current).  Hook one charging output to each battery.

You can charge the batteries while they are hooked in parallel (with temperature compensation), but the two charging units will track each other and they're really acting as a single 30A unit.

Once in a while (heck, as often as possible), open the disconnect switch and allow the charger to run a cycle on the isolated batteries.  You can monitor the charger LEDs to verify that both batteries are charging at about the same rate (meaning that they are still matched)....  and the charger will ensure that BOTH batteries get charged to their full capacity.

If you see that one battery is really lagging the other w/respect to charging time... then you know that they have lost match and one of the batteries probably has a problem.  If the bank is more than a year or so old, then you need to replace BOTH batteries (it's a little dangerous to introduce a new parallel battery into a bank that has "older" batteries).  This is the problem with parallel battery banks.

I've got 4 12V DC batteries on my wife's boat.. running in series to make 48V for the Torqeedo.  I've got a SS4 (four battery, 10A per battery) charger running that rig.  Not as configurable as the Xantrex charger that is on The `Blocker.....  but it has done a really nice job none-the-less.  Prior to that, when her boat was 24V, I used a PS2.
1992 SunTracker Party Cruiser 41ft
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-- Okauchee Lake, WI --
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 4:17pm
Hmmmm...  Yeah, that's interesting.  So in a series, problems would be much more obvious.  That's a great point.

So 2 x 6v, 200Ah = 12v, 200Ah.  If one battery begins to die, I'd get something like 10.5v at max charge, and I'd know something was wrong.  I could hit it with a multimeter and figure out which battery was having the problem, replace just that one, and mix a new and not-new battery without a problem.

In a parallel, I'd never know I had a problem (except that discharge times would seem shorter than normal - my bet is that I wouldn't notice) and I'd have to isolate and test each battery to figure out what was going on...  Unless a battery had a catastrophic issue like it did in your case - which seems likely if you don't really have any other indications that a battery is having an issue. 

...So the series option seems safer unless you go to the lengths to monitor and test the batteries regularly.  Even with the right equipment (dash-mounted indicators), the series option seems like it would give you more indication earlier than any regular-testing would.

...Of course, this is assuming that I choose to use multiple batteries in the first place.  What's wrong with using one of these https://www.batteriesexpressinc.com/Interstate_Batteries_SRM_29_Deep_Cycle_Battery_p/marine-int-srm-29.htm as the house and one of these http://www.interstatebatteries.com/Products/RT/PID-24M-XHD%28Automotive+Truck%29.aspx?dsNavigation=Nrc~id-3%7Cid-5%2CN~4283764515&Title=Marine+R%2FV+-+24+Months+-+800+CCA as a starting battery?  Sure, I'd be limited in capacity of the house battery to about 100Ah (we discussed not fully discharging the battery), but that's no more than what's offered in two 6v golf cart batteries mounted in a series.

It seems to me that the golf cart battery idea only works when you mount like four or more of them in both a series (two at a shot) and parallel (two parallels).

As a side note, if my house "bank" (consisting of one battery) began to display less than 12v at full charge, I'd simply replace the whole "bank" (the one battery).  Seems simpler and a lot less expensive than monitoring multiple batteries.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 4:23pm
Heck, with that kind of CCA in that "deep cycle" battery (the first one I listed above), I could just use two of that...  One for the house and one for the starting battery.  The 2-stroke Yamaha 115 doesn't need that much CCA to start.

I tend to trust these newer "dual-purpose" batteries more than I trust a true starting battery...  The first time you deplete a starting battery more than 90% and leave it overnight, it seems hosed.  The "dual purpose" batteries seem better able to handle the abuse.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 5:11pm
If I'm not mistaken, the Interstate battery is made by JCI (Johnson Controls).. same as the Walmart and Sam's Club batteries.  As I mentioned earlier, that's fine as long as you realize that they don't have a lot of lead and aren't going to give you the longevity of a premium series battery.

"Golf cart" batteries allow you to get a lot of capacity without resorting to any parallel... while still having some decent flexibility in the installation layout.  I can get 6V batteries with well over 330Ah.

Don't get me wrong, I can also get 12V DC flooded batteries with "true" capacities over 250Ah.. but they're big, nasty unwieldy suckers that are impossible to lift and a pain to fit anywhere.

 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 5:23pm
Oh, well now that's starting to make sense to me...  300+Ah in a pair of 6v's mounted in a series...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 6:38pm
The current goal with The `Blocker is to get to the point where I can do a full 24 hours of "typical" use without worrying about dipping below 50% SOC.  "Typical" excludes making hot water or running heat.

If I take a look at my daytime usage... running the stereo and TV, running the slide water pump, refrigerators on, making AC, consuming compressed air, etc...... and then average that with my nighttime usage (lights out, no stereo, etc..) it looks like I can get there with a bit over 500Ah.  

With 500Ah and my shorepower rig (or generator) I can get 95% recovery in about 9 hours.

If I do any cruising during that period I get some gravy since the E-Tec has a pretty impressive charging circuit (~50A net output).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 9:00pm
Niiiice! :-)

By comparison, I suppose I'm playing with a pretty weak output, but it's just a guess until I can get an ammeter on it. We'll see how that goes and whether or not I need solar, and how badly.

Right now, I suppose I'm looking at a starting battery and either a pair of golf cart batteries in series or a JCI deep cycle. It seems to me, based on a pencil-whip, like I'd need at least 200Ah, so the golf cart ones in a series start to make sense. Having a dash-mounted monitor (or possibly an NMEA2000-compatible) and an ACR are gonna be where it's at... Then I can begin upgrading depending on how accurately I judged our needs.

Edited by DeepSouthDiver - 01/16/2015 at 9:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 9:58pm
I'm terribly biased, but I think you have a solid approach and are making good decisions!!  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/16/2015 at 11:10pm
Lol! Well, yeah, with your help! :-)

I have little 'tooning experience, but have been on the water for 35 years. Everything you're saying makes sense, and is nicely "tuned" for the subject.

I know just enough about a pontoon to know I know very little and need to listen to a guy like you who's been at it a while... And has been successful with it. Clearly, you have. I love your rig! Liquid Limo will be honed for salt water and a simpler approach, but at the expense of a lot of the really cool stuff you have - and a lot of capability (shower, colder weather, sleepability). But I think it's a good start. :-)

Yesterday I saw a 35' triple-toon workboat with a 10' beam at a client's place. Solid 3/8" diamondplate floors all around, and a 150 Yamaha outboard. She was a beast! Ugly as *inappropriate language not permitted*, but truly amazing. :-)

Definitely not easily trailerable, but I fell in love with her solidness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/17/2015 at 1:05am
You may have already checked out the thread, but if you want to talk about a hand-fabricated tank, Sceman's "Starting from scratch" build is hard to beat. All-welded construction and some masterful craftsmanship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote curtiscapk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2015 at 1:58pm
Originally posted by SunBlocker SunBlocker wrote:

You may have already checked out the thread, but if you want to talk about a hand-fabricated tank, Sceman's "Starting from scratch" build is hard to beat. All-welded construction and some masterful craftsmanship.
 
Agreed Scott's build is out of this world! The LL is coming along nicely as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2015 at 2:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2015 at 6:46pm
Originally posted by SunBlocker SunBlocker wrote:

I'm trying to get a buddy of mine on an adjacent lake to buy this monster:


Tongue

Good Lord!  That thing is $72k!!

Thanks for the compliment, Curtis!

Sunblocker:  I hadn't seen that thread before.  Thanks for the link!  So far I've spent an hour or so perusing the thread and am not finished.  :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2015 at 7:01pm
Well...  

I got some work done over the weekend.  I talked the wife into giving me a second set of hands (hers) and we successfully got the console off and the deck torn up.

Each 4'x8' sheet of plywood was held in by only four through-bolts, with the exception of the front two panels having six.  The heads of them were countersunk into the plywood and then filled with resin and carpeted over.  The carpet was totally dry-rotted.  None of the nuts under the deck (bottomside of the thru-bolts) were nylocks.  Every one of them was simply tightened down.  No washers and no lockwashers.  I was shocked at this.  My install will include stainless steel nylocks.

I'll also be using the special Crest "toothed" flat-headed bolts from PontoonStuff rather than these plain bolts so that I don't have to do all the countersinking.  

Because the bolts were sitting in rotted wood and I was unable to hold the heads, about 40% of them were "spun" and impossible to get off.  I used a sawzall to attack the nuts underneath the deck, but that was very laborious.  In frustration, I used the back end of a claw hammer to rip up the wood around the bolt heads and hold them while my wife unscrewed the nuts from the bolt.  This worked well.  It was a little more time-consuming than it really needed to be, but in the end we got the deck off successfully without damaging any of the stringers.

What was left of the carpet we cut at the deck seams and disposed of the entire deck panel.

I was shocked as to how rotten the deck really was...  And how heavy the deck panels were.  Viewed from underneath, only the frontmost deck panel appeared to have any rot at all, and I really decided to re-deck not because of rot, but because of delamination.  This is the old "green" style pressure-treated plywood from 1989.  It was very walkable and exhibited no sponginess or soft spots.  Even when I cut back the carpet to expose the bolt head, the resin made the wood appear good.  I wasn't surprised...  She's been sitting in the sun for about a year, and I expected that wood to be very dry.

Hitting the wood with the claw hammer literally tore it apart.  It splintered easily into dark brown rot.  I'm really pleased that we took the time to redeck her.

Here's pics:













Here's the collection of fencing without paneling that I'm about to cut/grind/weld:








Edited by DeepSouthDiver - 01/19/2015 at 7:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/19/2015 at 7:22pm
Next step is getting the motor off, and I will begin to grind/cut/shape/weld the fencing.  I'll also be extending each pontoon's rearmost pedestal all the way to the welded cap, as this area is going to get a complete redesign.

The last two stringers will be replaced (they're bent from engine weight) and two more stringers will be added to the mix back there...  One to represent the last stringer of the deck and another to prevent the new ones from bending like the old ones did.  

Effectively, this is going to remove the engine notch from the deck completely, and the pod and motor will stick out aft quite a bit...  About four feet from their current position.  It'll add two feet of deck and close up the notch, so I'll be effectively reclaiming about 32 sqft of deck from the motor, the motor notch, the short deck, and two large boxes back there that used to house a battery and two 10-gallon fuel tanks.  This "open stern" is a key to the "diver" design of this boat.

Fuel tanks will be located amidships and batteries mounted in the bow to equalize the weight distribution from moving the engine so far aft.

The cabin will also be moved forward about a foot, both for improved looks and compensated weight distribution.  The roof itself weighs probably 250 pounds, and of course we'll be adding cabin accessories like walls, a sink, a head, and the like.

After seeing the deck off, I am considering removing the front two stringers and replacing them with a custom-made aluminum deck frame that will allow for about a foot of deck overhang over the bow.  This will make boarding/unboarding on the sand bar much easier and will increase her deck length to a full 30' for bragging rights.  :-)  There's some aesthetic reasons to do it, too.

Her LOA (length overall) should be in the 34' range including the far-aft motor and the pod.


Edited by DeepSouthDiver - 01/19/2015 at 7:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2015 at 12:24pm
Alright... I have sketched the front deck extension and come up with a plan:

Looks-wise, I want to extend the front deck to match the length of the pontoons themselves. It's not much - I'll take some measurements today, but it's only around a foot in length. The old deck extended out about six inches past the frontmost stringer, so overall the front deck will now be about 18 inches past the current frontmost stringer.

This will require another support (I'm not sure how they got away with even 6", but whatever). Here's the plan:

I have located more Crest stringers from PontoonSpecialists.com at $50 each. I'll use one (or two if necessary) and mount them upside-down inside the pontoon's frontmost pedestal. This will provide the support necessary to extend the length of the pontoon's cone. Atop that I'll mount another stringer, with a small piece of sheet aluminum between to maintain correct stringer height.

When I deck, I'm going to have to cut the second deck panel from 96"x48" to 96"x46.5" and then cut the first panel to the correct size.

All of this is for aesthetic reasons and to increase the functionality of the boat when beached at the sandbar. I would consider extending more, but I don't think it'll make much functional difference, and aethetics drop badly in my opinion.

The deck, therefore, will not hit the 30' mark... 29'6" or so.

There's going to be very little front swim platform on this boat... A foot or less... Just enough to be able to walk around and tie off a line to the front cleats. Playpen will extend as far forward as possible. Front gate door will not exist.

I've also been thinking about how to handle ladders/steps and permenantly-mounted fenders, as they need to be planned and executed as I'm building the deck.

What's the best acid to use? I'm not many steps away from that point... I think between removing the motor and having the new stern pedestals welded on. I found this stuff recently by JJV:

http://youtu.be/LlkuS5jnMDc

Thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2015 at 12:57pm
I've tried quite a few things for cleaning my logs... pink coil cleaner, etc..  Always find myself going back to "Zing".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2015 at 2:05pm
Zing it is, then. I'll order some today and do a full cleaning job on the bare 'toons and stringers after I remove the motor.

Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grouser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2015 at 5:04pm
Your boat is gonna be so much tighter than it was before. Getting that deck down and secured will be a great feeling I'm sure. The security of nylock and stainless will be comfy too. Keep up the good work. Your project seems to be the only thing goin right now here on the forum,,, thanks for the pics
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2015 at 5:30pm
Thanks grouser! I'm really looking forward to it. Headed to the shop now to work on her. :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/20/2015 at 6:19pm
Originally posted by DeepSouthDiver DeepSouthDiver wrote:

Zing it is, then. I'll order some today and do a full cleaning job on the bare 'toons and stringers after I remove the motor.

Thanks!

My biggest suggestion with the Zing is to get a really good sprayer, or a crud-load of really cheap sprayers (like used Windex bottles).  The acid in the Zing will destroy the pump in most of the sprayers in pretty short order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 3:31am
It must be like the Hull Cleaner by Starbrite, which I use on my glass boats... It eats sprayers. It'll eat skin and lungs up too if you're not careful.

I assume that Zing's aluminum cleaner is different from their fiberglass cleaner, which is probably a lot like Starbrite... So I'll avoid using the stuff I have and go for the Zing aluminum stuff like you say.

I spent most of today cleaning up my work area and disposing of the deck, which was a remarkable chore. Each panel had to weigh over 100 pounds. It took three different landfills before I could find a place that would take the old arsenic and copper-laced pressure treated wood.

Admittedly, I did a lot of measuring and planning... And still have not decided whether or not I'm going to extend that front deck. At best it's only gaining me 13.5 inches, but I think it's actually more like 8. It seems easy enough to do, but hardly worth it - and I've got a problem with it that I did not anticipate... The trailer. Essentially, the trailer's winch is as far forward as it can go as it is, and any deck extension moves the whole boat back on the trailer. It already hangs off the bunks a good bit... Another foot or so may not be in the cards.

I'm currently seeing if I can find another winch/stanchion for the trailer... Or if I can alter the one I have.

I'm not sure the foot or so of deck is even worth it. It seems like it's all about aesthetics at this point.

Anyone ever put a step 12" or so below their deck for stepping off the bow onto the sand? It seems to me like this might be a better way to make the boat sandbar-friendly than extending the deck a foot and having to deal with the issue of it fitting on the trailer...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 4:56am
It looks like there's a lot of options for that winch stand... Including buying or making a new one. So that won't be a reason to extend the deck or not extend the deck.

Looks like the deck extension is a go then.

I'll purchase two additional stringers... Cut one in half and invert it and mount it inside the first pontoon pedestal on each side. Then I'll cut it to be the same length as the pontoon, right after I straighten the tips of the 'toons and remove the annoying and ugly hooks on them. Then I'll mount a stringer between them, properly shimmed to maintain deck height.

I'll have to cut 1.5" off the width of the second deck board and cut the first to fit. That should do it... The deck will match the length of the pontoons.

I still think I should mount a single step forward of the deck and about 12" below and provide a handrail "post" for stepping onto the deck.

Edited by DeepSouthDiver - 01/21/2015 at 5:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grouser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 6:14am
I am thinking I want a front deck also,,,
 but have the same issue as you,,,
the winch is there and I don't want to move my boat back any.
So I have come up with a re-movable deck. the supports will clear eveything and will remain in place. The deck will be pinned and stowed above at an angle as to act like a spoiler to throw air over and not thru my cabin area.  Stilo just a vision in my head but one way to get around the problem we shared
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 1:21pm
Grouser... don't you have the Tracker/Trailstar trailer for your PH?  Super easy to move the entire winch stand and ladder assembly further forward.

Edited by SunBlocker - 01/21/2015 at 1:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Barnmb7117 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 2:26pm
Have you thought about a beach ramp???   http://pontoonramp.com/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Barnmb7117 Barnmb7117 wrote:

Have you thought about a beach ramp???   http://pontoonramp.com/

I think the manual slide-out bow ladder can double as a beach ramp (of sorts)... right?
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-- Okauchee Lake, WI --
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grouser Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 5:50pm
Originally posted by SunBlocker SunBlocker wrote:

Grouser... don't you have the Tracker/Trailstar trailer for your PH?  Super easy to move the entire winch stand and ladder assembly further forward.

Yes I do have about 12 to 18 inches I can move it forward. But was looking at making it 3 to 4 feet long. Trying to come up with a design that I can remove the deck on the water before retrieving the boat. So it has to be light and the mounting pins accessible from the top deck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeepSouthDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 10:33pm
Originally posted by Barnmb7117 Barnmb7117 wrote:

Have you thought about a beach ramp???   http://pontoonramp.com/


OMG. That is sooo cool.

I actually thought about something like this but figured it'd be too much of a pain to engineer and build and was just going to go with a permenantly-mounted step instead.

This is neat. Calling now for pricing... And to see if the thing makes any noise while underway.

Thanks for the link.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01/21/2015 at 10:43pm
I would look at this also:


Doubles as a boarding ladder when you're in deeper water.

A lot of folks have this style ladder and are quite pleased with it.
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-- Okauchee Lake, WI --
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