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Gas Can?!?!?

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shamrock View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/10/2012 at 10:44am
Hey everyone- I have a question.....
 
 
I took the boat up the Adirondacks for the 4th of July.... it started right up, we got out on the water for around 1/2 hr and then were heading back into the docks at full speed when the motor just stopped running..... it went from full throttle down to just idol then stalled out... I tried repeatedly to restart it and it was trying to turn over but not catching.. I checked my fuel lines, squooze the ball etc to no avail and got towed in (park ranger came just in time!Smile)... anyways, it sat on the side of the road a couple of days and I tried to start it and it did catch and ran for a second or two.. I took it back to the marina and the repair person stated that it has the wrong gas can and needs one with a vent as I have an older motor... he sold me the one I have now and is going to trade it in for me and is assuring me nothing mechanically is wrong, but, I am worried about his.. do you think this sounds right?  It is a 1983 motor.... has anyone else ever encountered this problem?  I did have a hard time at the end of last summer starting the motor and one time before this same thing happend but I was able to get it going again... he told me today that when he took the cap off the gas, there was a lot of pressure in there.....I don't want to be afraid to take it out again...Confused.... HELP!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 11:33am
Gas containers do need to be vented, old motors and new motors. As the fuel is used up from the can air has to come in to fill the vacant space. When a can isn't properly vented and the engine is run the can will develop a vacuum inside, not pressure. It eventually gets to the point the engine cannot suck in more fuel and it stalls. When you remove the lid you would hear air rush in (not out). If the tank is flexible you will see the sides caving in from the internal vaccum. You will also usually see the primer bulb sucked flat too, for the same reasons. Were you seeing any of this? If so they he is right, it was a tank venting problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 12:08pm
well, there is a vent on the top of the gas can and that was open, however, it was very hot and it was a 3 hr ride up there so maybe there was not enough air in there.. he said he is getting another gas can with another vent.... I dont understand what this means till I see it... I was kind of panicking and maybe didnt notice if the bulb or can was suctioned in... god I wish I would ve thought about taking the cap off... now I feel really stupid....Wacko.... well I was worried it was a fuel pump or something so hopefully he is right and it is just this gas can.... he is the one who sold it to me so he will let me trade in for the correct one.....Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cattzap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 1:48pm
Look for a fuel filter on the motor too.  If it's old/clogged, fuel may have trouble passing thru it.  Some fuel tanks have a check valve right where the hose attaches.  It's there to prevent a big spill in the event the fuel line leaks.  If you have one, those too can go bad and stop the flow of fuel.  There is also a check valve inside the primer bulb.  If it's bad it will do this.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 2:03pm
Thanks Cat.... yeah I had the filter replaced last summer... that tank was new with new bulb/lines as well.....thought I was covering all the bases but apparently as usual I was wrong..... so the new tank is coming in tomorrow.... I don't understand where a vent will be located at other than the cap?  Like I said, the one I had did have a vent and I did have it open but I guess it wasn't enough?!?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 2:11pm
on portable tanks the vent is in the cap, and it is often a little screw thing that can be open or closed (to keep water out when not needed). Hopefully that was the problem, it is easily solved.  The only reason we know these things is that we've made the same mistakes ourselves (but don't tell anyone!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 2:16pm
WackoYeah Woody that is what I currently have....and I did have it open, but he said on the older motors they need some special tank with another vent?  It is a portable red plastic 6 gallon that I have now.... hmmm..... so, I guess this other tank has an extra vent or something or maybe a bigger one in the cap? Hey I cant believe you guys have made any of these mistakes!Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 3:54pm
If you already have a tank with a vent, then he's just guessing that's your problem. He could have easily found this out by switching tanks or the line. Myself I would have replaced the fuel bulb before I'd spend money on a tank. I would refuse the new tank until somebody checks to see what the actual problem is instead of throwing money at it. The check value is what I would suspect but you need to know if the current tank is feeding fuel or not to the motor (pump the feul bulb on the line will confirm), check the fuel cap for problems. Just unscrewing the vent doesn't confirm you're getting air in, as it just let air in around the cap. Having a spare tank doesn't hurt either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 4:08pm
ohh.... yeah, the bulb, when i squeeze that it doesnt get that hard really..... i can hear the fuel going thru the line, and there is gas in it but it isn't really hard... all this stuff was new last summer... i am not buying another tank, he will have to do that because he admittedly sold me the wrong one so he is going to have to take a loss if that is the problem.....what would make the tank not feed the motor the fuel?  Just a bad line or the bulb?  He also said the bulb did not feel really hard when he pumped it either.....maybe there is air in there or something?  So, noone has ever heard of any other type of vent being on a tank except the one in the cap?Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 4:20pm
Permanent tanks have a separate vent line, its always open. But the fuel system has to be checked all the way from the gas, to the motor and everything in between, but troubleshooting the problem should be logical in most cases and most of the time easy to pinpoint where along the system its broke. I've never heard of being sold the wrong gas container - wrong fittings maybe, but that's EASY to know right off the bat. Now I don't buy those OLD steel tanks that have 2 lines and pressurized (old school stuff) but if he sold you the new plastic tank with a vented cap, should be no problem - however should be working too Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CajunDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/10/2012 at 7:57pm
Sounds like the check valve in the primer bulb may be bad to me. Some of the newer aftermarket ones have been known to fail quickly especially in ethanol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2012 at 9:24am
OK, well just waiting to hear back from him today..... so permanent tanks have another vent?  He said this new tank would have some special vent... I will ask him in detail if he did check that bulb and the check value... I will make believe I know what I am talking about- all because of you guys!LOL  I think I need to bring you all on my next camping trip!Smile
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actually if you didn't know already, you won't be fooling him unless he doesn't know anything either Wink.  If this guy was a mechanic, I wouldn't be letting him touch my stuff cause its obvious he didn't do any troubleshooting worth a hoot OR he didn't explain what the problem was enough for you to understand it was a bad tank and how it went bad if it was working before if its fairly new. (less than 5 years old, then its still fixable unless its a BIG HOLE in it). Permanent tanks will need a kit like this to complete it for a first time installation. After that its mostly replacing the hoses. See pic of a permanent style tank. See the metal copper looking round thing, that's where wires are connected (positive and grounds) for a fuel gauge connection. Then 3 pipes, Vent; Fuel Fill and connection to motor (needs connectors, also separate)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2012 at 5:27pm
The new portable tanks do not come with the traditional vent anymore. They have the new EPA  compliant gas cap (non-venting) and are ridiculously expensive...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CajunDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/11/2012 at 7:59pm
Yea I have one of those weird vented tanks on my new skiff. Haven't had to work on it yet but we did figure out how to take the gas cap offLOL  I am wondering if that is the kind of tank the dealer put on the OP's motor and it wouldn't work with an older motor?
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2012 at 7:42am
well I haven't heard back yet as he received the tank later in  the day.... I wanted to mention though, last year when they put the current tank I have on, they also put the new fuel line and bulb and there is also this circular plastic thing on the line that wasn't there previously....what is the purpose of that thing?  I was gonna ask him about that yesterday and I forgot........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2012 at 10:09am
without pics, we can guess all day long and still be wrong. But I suspect is a inline fuel filter which should be on the motor. I like the glass ones myself - see thru and easy to replace the filter in it if its located conveniently
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2012 at 11:17am
sorry i don't have the pictureCry.... it is not clear, there is about 1 foot of line from the motor, then there is this circular black thing ( not clear) I don't remember where the bulb is in realtion to that... then the rest of the line to the tank... I think the black thing is closer to the motor, then the bulb, then the rest of the line to the tank.....Embarrassed
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2012 at 3:40pm
Does it look similar to this, only black?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shamrock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2012 at 4:07pm
no it was more flatter and round... anyways, I just spoke to him and he said he got rid of that because it wouldn't work with the new gas tank and he took it and ran it hard for 20 or so minutes and it is runnig perfect.. yayClap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SunBlocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/12/2012 at 4:20pm
Probably a check valve or an anti-siphon valve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woody Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2012 at 9:16am
Wow, the price of the portable tanks have skyrocketed haven't they Rick!  I was in Bass Pro yesterday, couldn't believe thier cost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/13/2012 at 11:10am
Yes they are! If you find older tanks (like garage sales, Flea market, Etc), buy them up. Same with regular old gas cans. Those new ones with the safety spouts are horrible. Once again, thank you EPA for saving us..Angry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CajunDiver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/15/2012 at 10:58pm

I talked to a mechanic this weekend and he said the new tanks are made not to allow evaporation of fuel thus they are very thick. This along with all the other big brother stuff is driving the price way up. He also said the new primer bulbs are costing 30 or 40 bucks due to EPA requirements. I won't get into my *see forum rules* mode as Charles will probably fire me but all this is because they mandated ethanol gas

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lets hear it for the mandaters!!!!!  Thumbs Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jake wallace Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/10/2014 at 12:16pm
Yeah I have a new style 12 gallon on my boat with an 86 evinrude 110 and it all runs fine, but if I leave any fuel in it during the week I have to loosen the actual cap or the tank swells up like a balloon in this louisiana heat.
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